From jguest at brazoriainet.com  Thu Feb  1 10:05:01 2007
From: jguest at brazoriainet.com (Jim Guest)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:05:01 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Re: Sacrament Queries
References: <epqpnb+v60g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c7461a$bd832110$6600a8c0@JIMSCOMPUTER>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "streetp67" <streetp67 at aol.com>

> 1) Reverence is nearly non existant - he believes that 5 mins before
> Sacrament starts the member of the Bishopric conducting should stand
> at the pulpit and ask for everyone to be quiet and sit down....
------------------------------------------

In our ward the Bishopric are in their seats ten minutes before 
Sacrament starts and a different primany child acts as the "reverence 
child" each week. They stand quietly with their arms folded on the 
stand. They are a reminder to the people coming in to do so quietly and 
take their seat.
-----------------------------------


> 2) The young men as they Bless the Sacrament sometimes resort to
> using paper towels from the kitchen at the sacrament table -
> unfortunately they are blue - the counsellor claims that this is
> against policy and that everything should be white.
----------------------------------------

White is more fitting that colored. Why not get a couple of rolls of 
white paper towels and put them under the sacrament table or where the 
cups are filled and let the kitchen keep the color they want?
-------------------------------------


> 3) As the young Men pass the Sacrament they exit the Chapel to pass
> the Sacrament to those that have gone out to the quiet room (the
> room does have a speaker so that those in the room can hear the
> sacrament meeting). This he says is also against policy, and that
> only those in the chapel can receive the sacrament and that Ushers
> should be at all doors stopping entry or exit to the chapel during
> the passing of the sacrament.
-------------------------------------------------

We have speakers in the foyers too and the Bishop has instructed that 
those who pass go into the foyers also.
-----------------------------------------

> Now this counsellor is of a more mature age (I'm trying to be polite
> here) and has been a member rather a long time. My comment at the
> meeting was "What does the Handbook say", knowing that our nice new
> GHI books came out end of last year.... the answer from the
> counsellor was "I know I've read a bulletin about this."...
>
> Unfortunately we don't seem to have access to the often
> mentioned "LDS Archive" that contain all of the Bulletins etc so we
> can't disprove or prove what is right or wrong.
>
> Can anyone help as I would hate to see our new Bishop being led
> astray.
--------------------------------------------------

It appears that this new counselor is just trying to do his job. He is 
advising the Bishop on his understanding of things. The bottom line is 
that the Bishop should read the new CHI and decide for himself what 
instruction he should give concerning these things. If I still had my 
CHI I would look up some of these things, but I was just released as 
counselor last Sunday and have turned all my stuff in. 


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From bishop at seattlefirstward.com  Thu Feb  1 10:10:43 2007
From: bishop at seattlefirstward.com (Dave Hanley)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:10:43 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
Message-ID: <b8e8000702010810m388edf14x9d729de1c56fdca@mail.gmail.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


This submission made me laugh, mostly because I could clearly visualize the
man to whom you refer.  Some notes:


   1. It is church policy that a new handbook supersedes old bulletins.
   I believe this is found in the introduction of the Church Handbook of
   Instructions
   2. There is a list of all church communications available from the
   distribution center.  When I was called as bishop, my clerk noted which ones
   we already had, and I selected which ones of the remaining I wanted to have,
   based on their titles.
   3. When I was called into my first bishopric, the bishop invited me to
   wear a white shirt to church.  I only owned one, and had to go out and
   replace my more...uh... fashionable attire for classic white.  It seemed
   pharisaic to me to wear a white shirt, especially when the handbook tells us
   that it doesn't matter what kind of shirt or tie you wear.  But I came to a
   realization: There are certain cultural practices that if not followed will
   distract certain members of the church.  Passing the sacrament with the left
   hand, wearing a blue shirt, laugh when people call you "Bishop Dave" over
   the pulpit (I was a 29 year old bishop, now a much more mature 31), etc.  If
   the blue paper towels are distracting to this man, they're probably
   distracting to others, so go buy some white ones.  Or, better yet, go buy
   some towelettes, so the men's hands actually get clean. :)
   4. The most important thing we do is save souls.  If that means taking
   the sacrament across the street to the inactive man's house who is home
   watching the Superbowl, I'm going to do that.  The handbook does not
   preclude you from delivering the sacrament to those out in the hallway
   because they a) have a child, b) are uncomfortable in sacrament meeting, or
   c) were late.  Honestly, those who are habitually late to sacrament likely
   need its blessings and promises.
   5. Last point... remember brethren that we are working with an
   all-volunteer army.  People of all types need to be included and heard.  If
   this brother over focuses on things, help him to have empathy without always
   correcting him.  He likely means good and becomes myopic not because he does
   care about others, but he cares so very much.  His definitions of success
   and appropriateness come from his perceptions of the responsibility of
   priesthood leaders to set and abide by standards.  He just needs understand
   which standard is the most important.


Thanks for letting me crash your clerk party.  I have the utmost respect for
our clerk, who has been in the position for a dozen years and has let me
know that he is happy to serve until he dies.  He is truly one of the great
ones.

--Bishop Dave Hanley


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From adr at rossers.net  Thu Feb  1 10:47:51 2007
From: adr at rossers.net (Andrew R.)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:47:51 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <epqpnb+v60g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ept5jn+stld@eGroups.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


My comments are interspersed.

> Last November we had a change in Bishop, with the change, one
> counsellor was re-called, the other counsellor is new in the Ward,
> though should have been here for years as he's lived within the
> boundaries but refused to attend..... he's also what we in the UK
> would call an "old woman", ie: interferring busy body, etc.
>

Where in the UK?
It should be remembered that whatever you may think of him, his
calling allows for his comments. What the Bishop chooses to do with
them is up to him.

> Yesterday in Bishopric, this counsellor claims that our sacrament
> meetings are out of order.... for the following reasons:
>
> 1) Reverence is nearly non existant - he believes that 5 mins before
> Sacrament starts the member of the Bishopric conducting should stand
> at the pulpit and ask for everyone to be quiet and sit down....

If reverence is that much of a problem then maybe they should. Or, it
could be briefly discussed with the priesthood during opening
excersises.


> 2) The young men as they Bless the Sacrament sometimes resort to
> using paper towels from the kitchen at the sacrament table -
> unfortunately they are blue - the counsellor claims that this is
> against policy and that everything should be white.

There is no such policy - and if it really offends put them under the
table, rather than on it.


> 3) As the young Men pass the Sacrament they exit the Chapel to pass
> the Sacrament to those that have gone out to the quiet room (the
> room does have a speaker so that those in the room can hear the
> sacrament meeting). This he says is also against policy, and that
> only those in the chapel can receive the sacrament and that Ushers
> should be at all doors stopping entry or exit to the chapel during
> the passing of the sacrament.

This is really a Bishop's call. If it were me it would not happen. I
believe a bishop should be able to see who partakes of the sacrament.
However, my own bishop lets this happen, and he has his reasons.


> Now this counsellor is of a more mature age (I'm trying to be polite
> here) and has been a member rather a long time. My comment at the
> meeting was "What does the Handbook say", knowing that our nice new
> GHI books came out end of last year.... the answer from the
> counsellor was "I know I've read a bulletin about this."...
> Unfortunately we don't seem to have access to the often
> mentioned "LDS Archive" that contain all of the Bulletins etc so we
> can't disprove or prove what is right or wrong.

The current 2006 CHI is the only source that should be used for
determining what is, or is not, correct for sacrament meetings.


Andrew R.



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From tlwalker at nethere.com  Thu Feb  1 11:37:21 2007
From: tlwalker at nethere.com (Tom Walker)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:37:21 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <a0a0e1510701311910m32292099if1937209f4516421@mail.gmail.com>
References: <epqpnb+v60g@eGroups.com> <a0a0e1510701311910m32292099if1937209f4516421@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45C22551.1010706@nethere.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Actually when we got our New Handbook an information sheet came with 
them on what should be disposed of.

Tom Walker

Russell Hltn wrote:

>
>> From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
>> instructions and list URL.
>
>
> You might check the front of the new handbook to see if it contains
> any language that says it supersedes prior bulletins.  It seems a tad
> silly to issue a new handbook of instructions and then expect that on
> top of that one needs to read a bunch of older bulletins.
>
> It's entirely possible that what this brother has said was correct at
> one time, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's in effect now.  After
> all, we are not bound by prior handbooks.
>
>
>
> On 1/31/07, streetp67 <streetp67 at aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> >From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
>> instructions and list URL.
>>
>>
>> Last November we had a change in Bishop, with the change, one
>> counsellor was re-called, the other counsellor is new in the Ward,
>> though should have been here for years as he's lived within the
>> boundaries but refused to attend..... he's also what we in the UK
>> would call an "old woman", ie: interferring busy body, etc.
>>
>> Yesterday in Bishopric, this counsellor claims that our sacrament
>> meetings are out of order.... for the following reasons:
>>
>> 1) Reverence is nearly non existant - he believes that 5 mins before
>> Sacrament starts the member of the Bishopric conducting should stand
>> at the pulpit and ask for everyone to be quiet and sit down....
>>
>> 2) The young men as they Bless the Sacrament sometimes resort to
>> using paper towels from the kitchen at the sacrament table -
>> unfortunately they are blue - the counsellor claims that this is
>> against policy and that everything should be white.
>>
>> 3) As the young Men pass the Sacrament they exit the Chapel to pass
>> the Sacrament to those that have gone out to the quiet room (the
>> room does have a speaker so that those in the room can hear the
>> sacrament meeting). This he says is also against policy, and that
>> only those in the chapel can receive the sacrament and that Ushers
>> should be at all doors stopping entry or exit to the chapel during
>> the passing of the sacrament.
>>
>> Now this counsellor is of a more mature age (I'm trying to be polite
>> here) and has been a member rather a long time. My comment at the
>> meeting was "What does the Handbook say", knowing that our nice new
>> GHI books came out end of last year.... the answer from the
>> counsellor was "I know I've read a bulletin about this."...
>>
>> Unfortunately we don't seem to have access to the often
>> mentioned "LDS Archive" that contain all of the Bulletins etc so we
>> can't disprove or prove what is right or wrong.
>>
>> Can anyone help as I would hate to see our new Bishop being led
>> astray.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> >From ldsclerks: Please do not send copyrighted material to ldsclerks.
>> See list info at: http://www.MormonsToday.com/ldsclerks/
>>
>> Send commands in the body of a message to majordomo at MormonsToday.com
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>>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>

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From tlwalker at nethere.com  Thu Feb  1 11:56:35 2007
From: tlwalker at nethere.com (Tom Walker)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:56:35 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Re: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <20070131.233137.1752.1.lajackson@juno.com>
References: <20070131.233137.1752.1.lajackson@juno.com>
Message-ID: <45C229D3.5020303@nethere.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

On that on I have a saying "MY Bishop Right or Wrong". YES Bishops do 
make mistakes. And while only the Clerk he still listens to My view 
before making his decision on things that come up in the bishopric Meeting.
As to how far do I have to follow my Bishop "Right or Wrong" I believe 
the advice on following Husbands by Brigham Young applies.
"It is not my general practice to council the4 sisters to disobey their 
husbands, but my council is - Obey your husbands; and I am sanguine and 
most empathic on that subject. But i I never counseled a woman to follow 
her husband to the Devil. If a man is so determined to expose the lives 
of his friends, let that man go to the Devil and destruction alone"
That is from the discourses of Brigham young that I carry with me as a 
constant reminder of my actions.
Unfortunately I don't have the exact reference of where it is in the 
Discourses it is handy.

Tom Walker

Larry Jackson wrote:

>>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.
>
>streetp67 at aol.com:
>
>  
>
>  
>
>>Can anyone help as I would hate to see our new Bishop being 
>>led astray.
>>    
>>
>
>The bishop presides.
>
>
>Overall, I suggest a thorough study of the new Church Handbook 
>of Instructions.  Learn the real requirement.  Save the traditions 
>and extras until after the known instructions are being followed.  
>Then counsel together as a bishopric on the other matters.
>
>And the bishop still presides.  Read, study, and follow the Handbook.
>
>Two cents, please.  [grin]
>
>Larry Jackson
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>  
>

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From russellhltn at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 13:11:22 2007
From: russellhltn at gmail.com (RussellHltn)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:11:22 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Re: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <001b01c7461a$bd832110$6600a8c0@JIMSCOMPUTER>
Message-ID: <001101c74634$c47cdeb0$6401a8c0@cciclass4>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

>>> In our ward the Bishopric are in their seats ten minutes before
Sacrament starts and a different primany child acts as the "reverence child"
each week. They stand quietly with their arms folded on the stand. They are
a reminder to the people coming in to do so quietly and take their seat. <<<

Hmmmm.  Did Robert Kirby visit your ward?
http://www.sltrib.com/columnists/ci_4958742 




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From jlspa51 at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  1 13:17:02 2007
From: jlspa51 at earthlink.net (Jack Smolevitz)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:17:02 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
Message-ID: <28830128.1170357422581.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

What I want to know is how does one keep up with all the correspondence from CHQ.
And then how does one keep it organized enough to be able to find what you need to throw out?
Bp S


-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Walker <tlwalker at nethere.com>
>Sent: Feb 1, 2007 12:37 PM
>To: ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com
>Cc: Russell Hltn <russellhltn at gmail.com>, Tom Walker <tlwalker at nethere.com>
>Subject: Re: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
>
>
>>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.
>
>Actually when we got our New Handbook an information sheet came with 
>them on what should be disposed of.
>
>Tom Walker
>


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From popw8s at nwi.net  Thu Feb  1 13:18:09 2007
From: popw8s at nwi.net (wm_waites)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:18:09 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <epqpnb+v60g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <eptedh+le7j@eGroups.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


Brethren,
All excellent 'counsel and advice'. Just as the scriptures, if we
don't open them up occasionally, it's not likely we'll get much help
from them.

One more in the light of "Rules/Law of the Kingdom."
 #1.  The bishop is always right.
 #2.  In the event the bishop isn't right, see #1.
 ;-)

bill waites
Moses Lake, WA


--- In ldsclerks at yahoogroups.com, "streetp67" <streetp67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Last November we had a change in Bishop, with the change, one
> counsellor was re-called, the other counsellor is new in the Ward,
> though should have been here for years as he's lived within the
> boundaries but refused to attend..... he's also what we in the UK
> would call an "old woman", ie: interferring busy body, etc.
>
> Yesterday in Bishopric, this counsellor claims that our sacrament
> meetings are out of order.... for the following reasons:
>
> 1) Reverence is nearly non existant - he believes that 5 mins before
> Sacrament starts the member of the Bishopric conducting should stand
> at the pulpit and ask for everyone to be quiet and sit down....
>
> 2) The young men as they Bless the Sacrament sometimes resort to
> using paper towels from the kitchen at the sacrament table -
> unfortunately they are blue - the counsellor claims that this is
> against policy and that everything should be white.
>
> 3) As the young Men pass the Sacrament they exit the Chapel to pass
> the Sacrament to those that have gone out to the quiet room (the
> room does have a speaker so that those in the room can hear the
> sacrament meeting). This he says is also against policy, and that
> only those in the chapel can receive the sacrament and that Ushers
> should be at all doors stopping entry or exit to the chapel during
> the passing of the sacrament.
>
> Now this counsellor is of a more mature age (I'm trying to be polite
> here) and has been a member rather a long time. My comment at the
> meeting was "What does the Handbook say", knowing that our nice new
> GHI books came out end of last year.... the answer from the
> counsellor was "I know I've read a bulletin about this."...
>
> Unfortunately we don't seem to have access to the often
> mentioned "LDS Archive" that contain all of the Bulletins etc so we
> can't disprove or prove what is right or wrong.
>
> Can anyone help as I would hate to see our new Bishop being led
> astray.
>
> Thanks
>
>

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From mark_werner at byu.edu  Thu Feb  1 14:35:47 2007
From: mark_werner at byu.edu (Mark Werner)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:35:47 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Middle singles
In-Reply-To: <001501c73d40$8c55e830$6401a8c0@cciclass4>
References: <20070120.204637.2400.1.lajackson@juno.com> <001501c73d40$8c55e830$6401a8c0@cciclass4>
Message-ID: <002801c74640$8e35cbd0$aaa16370$@edu>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Speaking of "middle singles," a single sister moved into our stake from
California recently. She told a member of the stake presidency that in her
previous stake the "middle singles"--about ages 31 to 40--were all assigned
to the same ward. Our stake presidency is seriously considering the idea,
though probably would extend the upper age limit to 45 or 50.

Do any of you have experience with this sort of thing? I'd be interested in
hearing about it.

Mark Werner
Provo Utah East Stake

-----Original Message-----

I see some areas have come up with an unofficial designation of "middle
singles" to help bridge that.


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From Karl.Miller at huskyenergy.ca  Thu Feb  1 15:07:57 2007
From: Karl.Miller at huskyenergy.ca (Karl Miller)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:07:57 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Middle singles
In-Reply-To: <002801c74640$8e35cbd0$aaa16370$@edu>
Message-ID: <45C1F43C.6635.00B8.0@huskyenergy.ca>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


Sounds like a great ideaif the Stake is geographically small enough for
the Ward assigned the "middle singles" to conveniently incorporate them.
  I am wondering where she lived in California, as the Stakes I lived in
there would have been too large.    Our Stake her in Calgary is also
probably too large, particularly considering our Winter weather.

Karl Miller
Calgary, Alberta


>>> "Mark Werner" <mark_werner at byu.edu> 2/1/2007 1:35 PM >>>

Speaking of "middle singles," a single sister moved into our stake
from
California recently. She told a member of the stake presidency that in
her
previous stake the "middle singles"--about ages 31 to 40--were all
assigned
to the same ward. Our stake presidency is seriously considering the
idea,
though probably would extend the upper age limit to 45 or 50.

Do any of you have experience with this sort of thing? I'd be
interested in
hearing about it.

Mark Werner
Provo Utah East Stake

-----Original Message-----

I see some areas have come up with an unofficial designation of
"middle
singles" to help bridge that.



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From bordenjr at knology.net  Thu Feb  1 16:17:39 2007
From: bordenjr at knology.net (Mitch Borden)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:17:39 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Re: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <001101c74634$c47cdeb0$6401a8c0@cciclass4>
References: <001b01c7461a$bd832110$6600a8c0@JIMSCOMPUTER>
 <001101c74634$c47cdeb0$6401a8c0@cciclass4>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070201170558.035cbe98@knology.net>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

At 02:11 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote:

> >From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
> instructions and list URL.
>
> >>> In our ward the Bishopric are in their seats ten minutes before
>Sacrament starts and a different primany child acts as the "reverence child"
>each week. They stand quietly with their arms folded on the stand. They are
>a reminder to the people coming in to do so quietly and take their seat. <<<

We've tried that, also, and find that as a general rule the people 
tend to ignore the child and Bishopric with equal enthusiasm!  I've 
even suggested, tongue somewhat in cheek, that we have a large 
illuminated sign erected over the podium, "Be Still and know that I 
am God".  Of course, unless it was coupled to a loudspeaker quoting 
those words that was coupled to a system that measured the ambient 
conversational volume and activated when it reached above a certain 
level, it, too, would be equally ignored! ;-)

In all seriousness, it is a matter which we all need to address by 
setting an example and ensuring that our families do the same.  The 
Bishop and his counselors can give talks on the subject, they can sit 
on the stand like totems for 10 minutes before the meetings start, 
they can have the entire Primary standing up front with folded arms 
-- but unless we all take the matter seriously and do our part, all 
efforts will fail.

Having come from the Protestant world (I am a convert of 44 years) 
where one could hear a pin drop when you walked into the main chapel 
or church, I have always looked with some trepidation on the Tower of 
Babel that our chapels have almost always been.  It is very difficult 
to make the sudden transition from frantic conversation to the 
peaceful and quiet serenity that is conducive to the promptings and 
inspiration of the Spirit;  it can be done, but it takes some serious effort.

Mitch Borden



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From bordenjr at knology.net  Thu Feb  1 16:24:34 2007
From: bordenjr at knology.net (Mitch Borden)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:24:34 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <28830128.1170357422581.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.
 sa.earthlink.net>
References: <28830128.1170357422581.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070201171806.03587488@knology.net>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

At 02:17 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote:

> >From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
> instructions and list URL.
>
>What I want to know is how does one keep up with all the 
>correspondence from CHQ.
>And then how does one keep it organized enough to be able to find 
>what you need to throw out?
>Bp S
>
>
>-----Original Message-----

I always went through any such letters that the Bishop passed along 
to me;  any that referenced a matter that was in the CHI I made a 
copy of.  I had taken the clerk copy of the CHI and cut off the 
binding edge, then 3-hole punched it and put it in a 3-ring binder in 
the Bishop's office.  I would go to the page in the CHI that 
contained the material referenced in the letter, place a caret (>) at 
that point and write a reference in the CHI to the letter, then place 
the copy of the letter in the binder following that page.  In the 
front in the CHI binder I kept a running list of all letters that 
pertained to anything in the CHI, referencing it by subject matter, 
page number, source and date of the letter.

The original of the letter was placed in a correspondence file in the 
clerk's office.  Every six months I go through that file and destroy 
anything that has expired (referring to a matter or event whose time 
had expired);  the rest stay in the file indefinitely.

Mitch Borden 



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From clyde_morrell at byu.edu  Thu Feb  1 16:43:33 2007
From: clyde_morrell at byu.edu (Clyde Morrell)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:43:33 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <epqpnb+v60g@eGroups.com>
References: <epqpnb+v60g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AC6F958D83AE8546A1482816E532FDB103B16EFA@klondike.exch.ad.byu.edu>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

On Reverence:  Some years ago before the start of our stake conference,
our General Authority visitor -- Elder Boyd K. Packer -- specifically
asked the conducting counselor in the Stake Presidency to stand twice
before the starting time and ask the congregation for silence.  He then
announced that he would not deliver his planned speech, because we were
"living beneath our potential."  The lesson has not been forgotten!

I find that when I play a prelude at the organ the quieter I play the
more reverent the congregation.

While old Church Bulletins are interesting (like the one on cola drinks
from back in the 60s or 70s), I believe those which are still valid or
of concern to the Brethren are repeated in the current version of the
Church Handbook.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com
[mailto:owner-ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com] On Behalf Of streetp67
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:13 PM
To: ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com
Cc: streetp67
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription
instructions and list URL.


Last November we had a change in Bishop, with the change, one
counsellor was re-called, the other counsellor is new in the Ward,
though should have been here for years as he's lived within the
boundaries but refused to attend..... he's also what we in the UK
would call an "old woman", ie: interferring busy body, etc.

Yesterday in Bishopric, this counsellor claims that our sacrament
meetings are out of order.... for the following reasons:

1) Reverence is nearly non existant - he believes that 5 mins before
Sacrament starts the member of the Bishopric conducting should stand
at the pulpit and ask for everyone to be quiet and sit down....

2) The young men as they Bless the Sacrament sometimes resort to
using paper towels from the kitchen at the sacrament table -
unfortunately they are blue - the counsellor claims that this is
against policy and that everything should be white.

3) As the young Men pass the Sacrament they exit the Chapel to pass
the Sacrament to those that have gone out to the quiet room (the
room does have a speaker so that those in the room can hear the
sacrament meeting). This he says is also against policy, and that
only those in the chapel can receive the sacrament and that Ushers
should be at all doors stopping entry or exit to the chapel during
the passing of the sacrament.

Now this counsellor is of a more mature age (I'm trying to be polite
here) and has been a member rather a long time. My comment at the
meeting was "What does the Handbook say", knowing that our nice new
GHI books came out end of last year.... the answer from the
counsellor was "I know I've read a bulletin about this."...

Unfortunately we don't seem to have access to the often
mentioned "LDS Archive" that contain all of the Bulletins etc so we
can't disprove or prove what is right or wrong.

Can anyone help as I would hate to see our new Bishop being led
astray.

Thanks



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From embunker817 at msn.com  Thu Feb  1 16:57:28 2007
From: embunker817 at msn.com (Eric Bunker)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:57:28 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
Message-ID: <BAY107-DAV2257C757493C63106E9412F6A40@phx.gbl>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


All such data can also be had online at the secure email site.

Eric 

Clerk
Queen Creek Arizona Stake
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mitch Borden<mailto:bordenjr at knology.net> 
  To: ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com<mailto:ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com> 
  Cc: Mitch Borden<mailto:bordenjr at knology.net> 
  Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:24 PM
  Subject: Re: LDSC: Sacrament Queries


  At 02:17 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote:
  >
  >What I want to know is how does one keep up with all the 
  >correspondence from CHQ.
  >And then how does one keep it organized enough to be able to find 
  >what you need to throw out?
  >Bp S
  >
  >
  >-----Original Message-----

  I always went through any such letters that the Bishop passed along 
  to me;  any that referenced a matter that was in the CHI I made a 
  copy of.  I had taken the clerk copy of the CHI and cut off the 
  binding edge, then 3-hole punched it and put it in a 3-ring binder in 
  the Bishop's office.  I would go to the page in the CHI that 
  contained the material referenced in the letter, place a caret (>) at 
  that point and write a reference in the CHI to the letter, then place 
  the copy of the letter in the binder following that page.  In the 
  front in the CHI binder I kept a running list of all letters that 
  pertained to anything in the CHI, referencing it by subject matter, 
  page number, source and date of the letter.

  The original of the letter was placed in a correspondence file in the 
  clerk's office.  Every six months I go through that file and destroy 
  anything that has expired (referring to a matter or event whose time 
  had expired);  the rest stay in the file indefinitely.

  Mitch Borden 




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From tlwalker at nethere.com  Thu Feb  1 17:16:32 2007
From: tlwalker at nethere.com (Tom Walker)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:16:32 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070201171806.03587488@knology.net>
References: <28830128.1170357422581.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070201171806.03587488@knology.net>
Message-ID: <45C274D0.5090301@nethere.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Clerks Copy of the  Handbook? What is that, My Bishop doesn't think I 
need one as his Ward Clerk.

Of course he has good reason I guess as I look at the gospel and most of 
the handbook as "Black and White". But the typical comments I hear when 
it is discussed in Bishopric Meeting are "What are the Exceptions" and 
even one time "Lets do it and Call lit something Else"  :-(  :-(

Tom Walker

Mitch Borden wrote:

>
>> From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
>> instructions and list URL.
>
>
> At 02:17 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote:
>
>> >From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
>> instructions and list URL.
>>
>> What I want to know is how does one keep up with all the 
>> correspondence from CHQ.
>> And then how does one keep it organized enough to be able to find 
>> what you need to throw out?
>> Bp S
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> I always went through any such letters that the Bishop passed along to 
> me;  any that referenced a matter that was in the CHI I made a copy 
> of.  I had taken the clerk copy of the CHI and cut off the binding 
> edge, then 3-hole punched it and put it in a 3-ring binder in the 
> Bishop's office.  I would go to the page in the CHI that contained the 
> material referenced in the letter, place a caret (>) at that point and 
> write a reference in the CHI to the letter, then place the copy of the 
> letter in the binder following that page.  In the front in the CHI 
> binder I kept a running list of all letters that pertained to anything 
> in the CHI, referencing it by subject matter, page number, source and 
> date of the letter.
>
>

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From embunker817 at msn.com  Thu Feb  1 17:43:57 2007
From: embunker817 at msn.com (Eric Bunker)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:43:57 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Re: Middle singles
Message-ID: <BAY107-DAV17100503B824636675FFA1F6A40@phx.gbl>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


That is an interesting thought.

Is it a ward with singles with children or one without?  I would assume by demographics that it is one with children and that children would be also included in the ward.  

To me, three questions need to be answered.  

1:      Is it the best thing for single adults in that age range to be segregated into one ward?  
2:      Is it the best thing for the children of single adults to be segregated away from children in regular two parent families into one ward?
3:      Would the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve approve it?  

The first two questions are ones that only a stake president can answer.  

On the third one,  From my experience, I doubt that it would ever fly past the brethren anymore.  They are tending to shy away from specialty wards altogether, especially Elder Packer.

However, if your stake president wants to try anyway, it is much the same process as any ward creation.  Never the less, I first would have your stake president broach the idea via letter with some basic stats to the the member of the Presidency of the First Quorum of Seventy assigned to your stake, to see if even the concept will fly with them.

I would expect that such a letter would result in some phone conversations between your stake president and him or at least your area authority to flesh out details.  

If it actually gets tentative approval, then traditional paperwork would then need to be submitted the Boundary and Realignment committee.

Eric 

Clerk
Queen Creek Arizona Stake


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Werner<mailto:mark_werner at byu.edu> 
  To: ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com<mailto:ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com> 
  Cc: Mark Werner<mailto:mark_werner at byu.edu> 
  Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 1:35 PM
  Subject: LDSC: Middle singles


  Speaking of "middle singles," a single sister moved into our stake from
  California recently. She told a member of the stake presidency that in her
  previous stake the "middle singles"--about ages 31 to 40--were all assigned
  to the same ward. Our stake presidency is seriously considering the idea,
  though probably would extend the upper age limit to 45 or 50.

  Do any of you have experience with this sort of thing? I'd be interested in
  hearing about it.

  Mark Werner
  Provo Utah East Stake

  -----Original Message-----

  I see some areas have come up with an unofficial designation of "middle
  singles" to help bridge that.



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From embunker817 at msn.com  Thu Feb  1 17:47:20 2007
From: embunker817 at msn.com (Eric Bunker)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:47:20 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
Message-ID: <BAY107-DAV16033073FC3905084137C3F6A40@phx.gbl>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


If you have a bishop that is that loose, perhaps the high councilman assigned to your ward needs to spend more time in bishopric and PEC meetings with your ward.

Eric 

Clerk
Queen Creek Arizona Stake
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tom Walker<mailto:tlwalker at nethere.com> 
  To: ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com<mailto:ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com> 
  Cc: Mitch Borden<mailto:bordenjr at knology.net> ; Tom Walker<mailto:tlwalker at nethere.com> 
  Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:16 PM
  Subject: Re: LDSC: Sacrament Queries


  Clerks Copy of the  Handbook? What is that, My Bishop doesn't think I 
  need one as his Ward Clerk.

  Of course he has good reason I guess as I look at the gospel and most of 
  the handbook as "Black and White". But the typical comments I hear when 
  it is discussed in Bishopric Meeting are "What are the Exceptions" and 
  even one time "Lets do it and Call lit something Else"  :-(  :-(

  Tom Walker

  Mitch Borden wrote:
  >
  > At 02:17 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote:
  >>
  >> What I want to know is how does one keep up with all the 
  >> correspondence from CHQ.
  >> And then how does one keep it organized enough to be able to find 
  >> what you need to throw out?
  >> Bp S
  >>
  >>
  >> -----Original Message-----
  >
  >
  > I always went through any such letters that the Bishop passed along to 
  > me;  any that referenced a matter that was in the CHI I made a copy 
  > of.  I had taken the clerk copy of the CHI and cut off the binding 
  > edge, then 3-hole punched it and put it in a 3-ring binder in the 
  > Bishop's office.  I would go to the page in the CHI that contained the 
  > material referenced in the letter, place a caret (>) at that point and 
  > write a reference in the CHI to the letter, then place the copy of the 
  > letter in the binder following that page.  In the front in the CHI 
  > binder I kept a running list of all letters that pertained to anything 
  > in the CHI, referencing it by subject matter, page number, source and 
  > date of the letter.
  >
  >


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From w.clausen at comcast.net  Thu Feb  1 18:22:19 2007
From: w.clausen at comcast.net (William J. Clausen)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:22:19 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <45C274D0.5090301@nethere.com>
Message-ID: <200702020022.l120M6Fn004777@mormonstoday.propagation.net>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Mitch, Tom, 
We've adopted a Excel spreadsheet it has all the communications from CHQ in
order. Then we keep the original in a three ring binder with a number
reference on the side that corresponds to the spread sheet. It's not rocket
science but it seems to work.
 Bill Clausen 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com
[mailto:owner-ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com] On Behalf Of Tom Walker
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:17 PM
To: ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com
Cc: Mitch Borden; Tom Walker
Subject: Re: LDSC: Sacrament Queries


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription
instructions and list URL.

Clerks Copy of the  Handbook? What is that, My Bishop doesn't think I need
one as his Ward Clerk.

Of course he has good reason I guess as I look at the gospel and most of the
handbook as "Black and White". But the typical comments I hear when it is
discussed in Bishopric Meeting are "What are the Exceptions" and even one
time "Lets do it and Call lit something Else"  :-(  :-(

Tom Walker

Mitch Borden wrote:

>
>> From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
>> instructions and list URL.
>
>
> At 02:17 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote:
>
>> >From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription
>> instructions and list URL.
>>
>> What I want to know is how does one keep up with all the 
>> correspondence from CHQ.
>> And then how does one keep it organized enough to be able to find 
>> what you need to throw out?
>> Bp S
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> I always went through any such letters that the Bishop passed along to 
> me;  any that referenced a matter that was in the CHI I made a copy 
> of.  I had taken the clerk copy of the CHI and cut off the binding 
> edge, then 3-hole punched it and put it in a 3-ring binder in the 
> Bishop's office.  I would go to the page in the CHI that contained the 
> material referenced in the letter, place a caret (>) at that point and 
> write a reference in the CHI to the letter, then place the copy of the 
> letter in the binder following that page.  In the front in the CHI 
> binder I kept a running list of all letters that pertained to anything 
> in the CHI, referencing it by subject matter, page number, source and 
> date of the letter.
>
>

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From ldsskier at rusticate.net  Thu Feb  1 18:34:25 2007
From: ldsskier at rusticate.net (Skier)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:34:25 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <AC6F958D83AE8546A1482816E532FDB103B16EFA@klondike.exch.ad.byu.edu>
References: <epqpnb+v60g@eGroups.com> <AC6F958D83AE8546A1482816E532FDB103B16EFA@klondike.exch.ad.byu.edu>
Message-ID: <45C28711.5060802@rusticate.net>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Clyde Morrell wrote:

> On Reverence:  Some years ago before the start of our stake
> conference, our General Authority visitor -- Elder Boyd K. Packer --
> specifically asked the conducting counselor in the Stake Presidency
> to stand twice before the starting time and ask the congregation for
> silence.  He then announced that he would not deliver his planned
> speech, because we were "living beneath our potential."  The lesson
> has not been forgotten!

He did the same thing at a regional conference while I was on my 
mission.  Held in a sports arena, among other things the members kept 
getting up to go buy refreshments during the conference.

Personally, I'd just be happy if parents taught their 4 year olds not to 
scream during sacrament meeting.

> While old Church Bulletins are interesting (like the one on cola
> drinks from back in the 60s or 70s), I believe those which are still
> valid or of concern to the Brethren are repeated in the current
> version of the Church Handbook.

Is there an archive of those somewhere?

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From jguest at brazoriainet.com  Thu Feb  1 19:09:06 2007
From: jguest at brazoriainet.com (Jim Guest)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:09:06 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Re: Sacrament Queries
References: <001101c74634$c47cdeb0$6401a8c0@cciclass4>
Message-ID: <000901c74666$bdb765f0$6600a8c0@JIMSCOMPUTER>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RussellHltn" <russellhltn at gmail.com>
 >>>> In our ward the Bishopric are in their seats ten minutes before
> Sacrament starts and a different primany child acts as the "reverence 
> child"
> each week. They stand quietly with their arms folded on the stand. 
> They are
> a reminder to the people coming in to do so quietly and take their 
> seat. <<<
>
> Hmmmm.  Did Robert Kirby visit your ward?
> http://www.sltrib.com/columnists/ci_4958742
 ===================================

No, but it works good for us here.

Jim Guest 


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From baclawskidad at centurytel.net  Thu Feb  1 19:28:20 2007
From: baclawskidad at centurytel.net (Charles Baclawski)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:28:20 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
References: <28830128.1170357422581.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070201171806.03587488@knology.net> <45C274D0.5090301@nethere.com>
Message-ID: <001201c74669$6c541a70$2f01a8c0@Herbie>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

For the last several years our Stake Presidency has stressed increasing 
reverence in Sacrament Meetings. Some of the things that have really helped 
include:

1) using ushers -- several units had ushers arrive 20 minutes early and 
greet the members with the chapel doors closed; and opening the doors for 
the members so they could go in. They also had ushers on the inside who 
would actually go up to members who were talking in the chapel and ask them, 
reverently and pleasantly, to continue their conversation outside. As I 
recall the bishopric members were the inside ushers and the FT Missionaries 
the door ushers at first but after a couple of weeks it was delegated to 
Aaronic Priesthood (Melchizedek Priesthood did the inside ushering until it 
was no longer needed) but I am sure it varied.

2) having the prelude music start 15 - 20 minutes early, and having the 
sacrament prepared prior to that also helped set the tone. All speakers were 
asked to be on the stand 10 minutes early.

3) at the end of the meeting the bishopric member conducting stood at the 
podium after the closing prayer and asked members to remain seated until the 
ushers dismissed them row by row from the back of the room. (Deacons or 
teachers were used to do the dismissing). Ushers were instructed not to move 
on to the next row until the one they were standing by was vacated 
completely.

4) the members of the Bishopric who were not conducting the meeting left the 
stand during the closing song and stood by the chapel doors to shake hands 
and encourage people to visit in the foyer.

5) having the organist play postlued music until everyone had vacated the 
room helped (until the person conducting moved away from the podium) Even if 
the chapel was used for a class, everyone had to leave then return after 
everyone else had left.

6) obviously members were warned starting a week or two in advance of the 
changes so it didn't suprise them. Most people knew what was happening 
because they were involved in it -- getting AP there early, etc.

7) our Stake President put together a one page flyer on what could be done 
to increase reference it was divided into columns - one for the Bishopric, 
one for the Speakers, one for the members, and had it discussed on a 5th 
sunday or two and distributed to everyone who speaks when they are invited 
to speak.

We found setting the tone for the meeting by starting right helped keep the 
meeting in control during the meeting. It did not happen overnight, but it 
has really helped. Keep in mind this is a multi-year stake wide effort --  
the focus has probably taken 4-5 years.

I do not think the stake has to be involved, it really was mostly a unit 
effort, the stake just held the unit leaders feet to the fire. But the 
program really has helped with reverence.

Chuck
Arkansas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Walker" <tlwalker at nethere.com>
To: <ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com>
Cc: "Mitch Borden" <bordenjr at knology.net>; "Tom Walker" 
<tlwalker at nethere.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: LDSC: Sacrament Queries


>
>>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
>>instructions and list URL.
>
> Clerks Copy of the  Handbook? What is that, My Bishop doesn't think I need 
> one as his Ward Clerk.
>
> Of course he has good reason I guess as I look at the gospel and most of 
> the handbook as "Black and White". But the typical comments I hear when it 
> is discussed in Bishopric Meeting are "What are the Exceptions" and even 
> one time "Lets do it and Call lit something Else"  :-(  :-(
>
> Tom Walker
>
> Mitch Borden wrote:
>
>>
>>> From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
>>> instructions and list URL.
>>
>>
>> At 02:17 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote:
>>
>>> >From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription
>>> instructions and list URL.
>>>
>>> What I want to know is how does one keep up with all the correspondence 
>>> from CHQ.
>>> And then how does one keep it organized enough to be able to find what 
>>> you need to throw out?
>>> Bp S
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>>
>> I always went through any such letters that the Bishop passed along to 
>> me;  any that referenced a matter that was in the CHI I made a copy of. 
>> I had taken the clerk copy of the CHI and cut off the binding edge, then 
>> 3-hole punched it and put it in a 3-ring binder in the Bishop's office. 
>> I would go to the page in the CHI that contained the material referenced 
>> in the letter, place a caret (>) at that point and write a reference in 
>> the CHI to the letter, then place the copy of the letter in the binder 
>> following that page.  In the front in the CHI binder I kept a running 
>> list of all letters that pertained to anything in the CHI, referencing it 
>> by subject matter, page number, source and date of the letter.
>>
>>
>
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From jguest at brazoriainet.com  Thu Feb  1 19:34:11 2007
From: jguest at brazoriainet.com (Jim Guest)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:34:11 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
References: <28830128.1170357422581.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070201171806.03587488@knology.net> <45C274D0.5090301@nethere.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c7466a$3fdd8bb0$6600a8c0@JIMSCOMPUTER>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Walker" <tlwalker at nethere.com>

> Clerks Copy of the  Handbook? What is that, My Bishop doesn't think I 
> need one as his Ward Clerk.
>
> Of course he has good reason I guess as I look at the gospel and most 
> of the handbook as "Black and White". But the typical comments I hear 
> when it is discussed in Bishopric Meeting are "What are the 
> Exceptions" and even one time "Lets do it and Call lit something Else" 
> :-(  :-(
 =============================

I'm not sure if you are serious or tounge-in-cheek, but the Ward Clerk 
and Executive Secretary are members of the Bishopric, although they 
serve in a different capacity than the two counselors.

There should be a copy of the CHI in a locked cabinet to be shared by 
the clerk and Ex Secy. That is in the CHI under the part telling how 
they should be distributed. We would even have ten minutes set apart in 
Bishopric meeting to go over different parts of the handbook.

I served with five different Bishops as Ward Clerk and I have always 
been treated as a member of the Bishopric, and as a "counselor" where it 
came to the clerk's office.

Jim Guest



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From lajackson at juno.com  Thu Feb  1 19:45:08 2007
From: lajackson at juno.com (Larry Jackson)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:45:08 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Re: Sacrament Queries
Message-ID: <20070201.200334.3036.4.lajackson@juno.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Jack Smolevitz:

What I want to know is how does one keep up with all the 
correspondence from CHQ. And then how does one keep it 
organized enough to be able to find what you need to throw out?

_______________

You assign your executive secretary to do it for you.  [grin]

Larry Jackson



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From rpyne at kinfolk.org  Thu Feb  1 22:02:36 2007
From: rpyne at kinfolk.org (Richard Pyne)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:02:36 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Middle singles
In-Reply-To: <002801c74640$8e35cbd0$aaa16370$@edu>
References: <20070120.204637.2400.1.lajackson@juno.com>, <001501c73d40$8c55e830$6401a8c0@cciclass4>, <002801c74640$8e35cbd0$aaa16370$@edu>
Message-ID: <45C2556C.20722.7DBFB42@rpyne.kinfolk.org>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

There have been at least a dozen Single Adult wards disbanded along the 
Wasatch Front in the last fifteen years. About that time frame ago there 
was instruction from CH that single adult wards are discouraged and only 
permitted where there are enough active single adult members within one 
stake interested in attending a Single Adult ward.

Tell President Christiansen that unless things have changed dramatically 
in the last 12 years since I moved out of your stake I seriously doubt 
that he could get enough participation to make it worth while.

In any event, read Section 11 of the CHI carefully, and consider: 
"Creation. In the exceptional circumstance that a stake includes 150 or 
more single adults ages 31 and older who want to be members of a single 
adult ward, the stake president may recommend that such a ward be created. 
Single adult wards are created or changed usng the proceedures outlined in 
"Wards and Branches in Stakes" on pages 167-68. Approval is given only by 
the First Presidency." (CHI page 169).

--Richard

On 1 Feb 2007 at 13:35, Mark Werner wrote:

> Speaking of "middle singles," a single sister moved into our stake from
> California recently. She told a member of the stake presidency that in her
> previous stake the "middle singles"--about ages 31 to 40--were all assigned
> to the same ward. Our stake presidency is seriously considering the idea,
> though probably would extend the upper age limit to 45 or 50.
> 
> Do any of you have experience with this sort of thing? I'd be interested in
> hearing about it.


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From rpyne at kinfolk.org  Thu Feb  1 22:02:36 2007
From: rpyne at kinfolk.org (Richard Pyne)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:02:36 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <28830128.1170357422581.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <28830128.1170357422581.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <45C2556C.26085.7DBFB90@rpyne.kinfolk.org>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

A letter that was sent with the new CHI listed specific notices and 
letters that are still relevant. All of them pertain to Book 2.

--Richard

On 1 Feb 2007 at 0:00, Jack Smolevitz wrote:

> 
> >From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.
> 
> What I want to know is how does one keep up with all the correspondence from CHQ.
> And then how does one keep it organized enough to be able to find what you need to throw out?
> Bp S
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Tom Walker <tlwalker at nethere.com>
> >Sent: Feb 1, 2007 12:37 PM
> >To: ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com
> >Cc: Russell Hltn <russellhltn at gmail.com>, Tom Walker <tlwalker at nethere.com>
> >Subject: Re: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
> >
> >
> >>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.
> >
> >Actually when we got our New Handbook an information sheet came with 
> >them on what should be disposed of.
> >
> >Tom Walker
> >
> 
> 
> >From ldsclerks: Please do not send copyrighted material to ldsclerks.
> See list info at: http://www.MormonsToday.com/ldsclerks/
> 
> Send commands in the body of a message to majordomo at MormonsToday.com
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> 



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From rpyne at kinfolk.org  Thu Feb  1 22:02:36 2007
From: rpyne at kinfolk.org (Richard Pyne)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:02:36 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <45C274D0.5090301@nethere.com>
References: <28830128.1170357422581.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <7.0.1.0.2.20070201171806.03587488@knology.net>, <45C274D0.5090301@nethere.com>
Message-ID: <45C2556C.10678.7DBFBDF@rpyne.kinfolk.org>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

In the ttraining I received both as a Ward Clerk and then as a Stake Clerk 
I was told that the clerks are supposed to "become experts on the Church 
Handbook of Instructions".

All four of the bishops I served under as a clerk treated me almost more 
like a counselor than a clerk.

--Richard

On 1 Feb 2007 at 15:16, Tom Walker wrote:

> Clerks Copy of the  Handbook? What is that, My Bishop doesn't think I 
> need one as his Ward Clerk.


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From russellhltn at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 23:11:03 2007
From: russellhltn at gmail.com (Russell Hltn)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 00:11:03 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Re: Middle singles
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-DAV17100503B824636675FFA1F6A40@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY107-DAV17100503B824636675FFA1F6A40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <a0a0e1510702012111g6d162c9cr8f401fa8a492ce0c@mail.gmail.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

> To me, three questions need to be answered.
>
> 1:      Is it the best thing for single adults in that age range to be segregated into one ward?
> 2:      Is it the best thing for the children of single adults to be segregated away from children in regular two parent families into one ward?
> 3:      Would the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve approve it?
>
> The first two questions are ones that only a stake president can answer.

Based on my experience:
1. While some singles will opt to remain in their family wards, I
think over all it would be a good thing.  Overall attendance would be
up.
2. In the wards I've been, that's not been a problem.  There may be a
bigger problem of the kids being spoiled rotten by all the adults and
the attention they get.
3. Who says they'd be asked? <grin>

Let me tell you a tale of two wards.  The first was student ward.
They were quite lax about chasing graduates out of the system.  In
fact later bishops actually invited singles to come.  Singles
regardless of YSA or SA age group.  At one time there was a purge of
marrieds who were no longer students but over all it was left alone.
I was told that "the brethren" were aware of the situation, but since
it seemed to satisfy needs, they didn't bother things.

Things went along merely until.... it grew so big that the sacrament
meetings in the Institute building were violating firecodes.  (Oh,
such a problem to have!)  So it was divided into two wards:  A student
branch and a YSA ward.  Oh, officially it was a YSA ward, but that
didn't stop the SAs from being a part of it.  The stake president
knew.  But he was fine with it.  I think the ward was probably about
50/50 YSA and SA.  As the clerk of said ward, I can't remember one
time that anyone at SLC gave me flack about requesting the records of
"over age" singles.  CHQ doesn't worry about those kinds of things.

Yet that ward also met it's end.  You'll hear different stories as to
why.  I think the main one was the new SP put in the paperwork to have
it dissolved because of "the letter" that came out some years ago.
The same one that closed a bunch of language wards.  Some cite falling
attendance.  Others a lack of Priesthood.  Both were certainly true in
the end.  But the news broke at the beginning of November and we
weren't officially shut down until just after April General
Conference.  At that point it was a mercy killing.  In January we got
moved (again) to a smaller chapel with poor parking due to building
renovations.  I think most of the problems came because between the
new year, a new location and the knowledge we were going to be closed
"soon", many singles simply moved on.

But I digress.

Yes, I know what the CHI says.  And based on my experience, there's a
good chance that "Middle Singles" ward is really a YSA or SA ward with
local PH making their own rules.  CHQ is no doubt aware of it, but as
long as it's working out and no problems, they'll just watch and leave
it alone.  It seems that sometimes new things happen as a result of a
renegade unit being successful.

Oh, and those stake presidents that ignored the letter of the law in
the CHI?  Most went on to other, bigger assignments.  One is now a
Seventy.  He's spoken in General Conference.  Another is has been a
Temple President and even a Mission President.  Of all the SPs that
I've known, the only two that haven't moved up: one moved away so I
lost track of him so I can't say what's happened.  The other?  He's
the one that closed the ward.

In all my times in the church, in church and on-line, I've never heard
anyone praise the existing system or thankful that the older singles
were excluded from their singles ward or activities.  Usually what
I've heard is sorrow or bitterness over being sent packing when they
turned 30/31.  Is the church made for man or man for the church?

You're right in that the children's needs shouldn't be ignored in
this, but the decision needs to be made on what's best for everyone.

I know some will fear that it will rob the family wards of their
singles programs.  In my area they welcomed the demise of the singles
ward as they hoped it would improve their ward.  I don't think it did.
 There were simply too few once divided up.  The extra bodies weren't
enough for the ward to build it's singles "fire"  (The story of the
coal is a good analogy for singles.  You simply can't have a fire with
a single charcoal briquette.  If you take one out of the fire, it will
cool off and go out.  But put them all together in a pile and they
will burn well.)  The key to a good singles program is to get a big
enough pile.  If you can't get crucial mass, it just won't work.


</rant>

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From klarsen at MormonsToday.com  Fri Feb  2 00:08:19 2007
From: klarsen at MormonsToday.com (Kent S. Larsen II)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 01:08:19 -0500
Subject: LDSC: LDSClerks List Policies and Instructions
Message-ID: <a06200717c1e878e259b6@[192.168.1.102]>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.



I'm trying to send this out monthly.

Any corrections or suggestions for changes to this message are welcome.

Kent


BRIEF LIST DESCRIPTION

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From wa7jos at xmission.com  Fri Feb  2 00:28:16 2007
From: wa7jos at xmission.com (Chuck Johnson)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 01:28:16 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Re: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070201170558.035cbe98@knology.net>
References: <001b01c7461a$bd832110$6600a8c0@JIMSCOMPUTER> <001101c74634$c47cdeb0$6401a8c0@cciclass4> <7.0.1.0.2.20070201170558.035cbe98@knology.net>
Message-ID: <45C2DA00.9020501@xmission.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Mitch Borden wrote:
> We've tried that, also, and find that as a general rule the people 
> tend to ignore the child and Bishopric with equal enthusiasm!  I've 
> even suggested, tongue somewhat in cheek, that we have a large 
> illuminated sign erected over the podium, "Be Still and know that I am 
> God".  Of course, unless it was coupled to a loudspeaker quoting those 
> words that was coupled to a system that measured the ambient 
> conversational volume and activated when it reached above a certain 
> level, it, too, would be equally ignored! ;-) 

I used to play prelude music for Sacrament meeting.  Here's a technique 
that may get the point across - it requires that the organist be a 
co-conspirator.

Pick a hymn that builds a bit toward a crescendo.  As you build in 
volume, the "Chatty Cathy's" will probably increase in volume to 
continue their conversations.  At this point, STOP PLAYING and let the 
musical silence and the din of the congregation speak volumes.  They'll 
get the point.

Chuck Johnson


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From russellhltn at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 03:56:09 2007
From: russellhltn at gmail.com (RussellHltn)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 04:56:09 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Middle singles
In-Reply-To: <002801c74640$8e35cbd0$aaa16370$@edu>
Message-ID: <002001c746b0$5ef93fd0$6401a8c0@cciclass4>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

>>>  the "middle singles"--about ages 31 to 40--were all assigned to the
same ward. <<<

OK, after that long rant, it's clear that "middle singles" by this
definition is really a Single Adult ward with the geezers kicked out. <grin>
If you can find the numbers, it should be straightforward to create it.

Just keep in mind a few things:  

1) Not all singles will want to go to it.  They're perfectly happy in their
family wards.

2) Not all singles of record are really single.  Some are inactives who have
gotten married - usually to non-members.

But if you can find the prerequist number of interested members, I say go
for it.  

If there's a way they can co-mingle with a family ward so the singles can
send their kids off to the family ward's primary and YM/YW then I think that
would be perfect.  The singles could hold their sacrament in the RS room.
Just an idea.


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From clerk.crescent at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 06:24:25 2007
From: clerk.crescent at gmail.com (Alan Brown)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 07:24:25 -0500
Subject: LDSC: LDSClerks List Policies and Instructions
In-Reply-To: <a06200717c1e878e259b6@192.168.1.102>
References: <a06200717c1e878e259b6@192.168.1.102>
Message-ID: <7378de6f0702020424s1f7505f9s8371d5b98b3c574c@mail.gmail.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

On 2/1/07, Kent S. Larsen II <klarsen at mormonstoday.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to send this out monthly.
>
> Any corrections or suggestions for changes to this message are welcome.

A couple of corrections:

> We encourage all list members to help improve the wiki and make
> ia another useful source of information for clerks.
I think you meant "it", not "ia". But I'm glad you included the wiki info.

> Since this causes email loops, and we have no choice but to remove
> the subscriber from the list.
Remove the spurious "and".

> See list info at: http://www.MormonsToday.com/ldsclerks/
This link doesn't work, and it's included at the end of every post!
I'm guessing that adding the wiki to MormonsToday.com messed up the
default page setting on the web server. I suppose you can fix that, or
change the link to include index.html.

When you do follow the link to the info page at
http://www.MormonsToday.com/ldsclerks/index.html, you get a page that
might usefully contain a reference to the companion wiki. In addition,
when you follow the links from that page to either the Info Document
or Brief Summary pages, the majordomo address is incorrectly listed as
majordomo at mailing-list.net, rather than majordomo at mormonstoday.com.

I guess my final comment is that although the message is a useful
reminder and has great information, it's very long and thus may be
ignored. Perhaps you might make the news "fresh" by highlighting a
brief "Tip of the Month" at the top of the message. These tips might
include:
-- Trim quoted material
-- Don't use HTML
-- Contribute to the Wiki
-- (whatever guideline seems to have been forgotten in recent messages)

Alan Brown
Assistant Stake Clerk
Sandy Utah Crescent Stake

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From arthurpsmith at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 08:13:51 2007
From: arthurpsmith at gmail.com (Arthur Smith)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 09:13:51 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
Message-ID: <98d3a3860702020613q41b326f0wb63f7b9573daed82@mail.gmail.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


Clyde Morrell wrote:
> I find that when I play a prelude at the organ the quieter I play the
more reverent the congregation.


Yes, I think the organ prelude (and postlude) has a strong effect. One
particular trick I've noticed, that folks might want to try with their
organists - periods of organ silence in between the prelude hymns. If you
keep the organ going the whole time, people just treat it as background and
may raise their voices. But if you break off the music for just a few
seconds, suddenly the background is gone, people notice, and tend to quiet
down. And stay quiet listening to the next hymn.

Bishop Edgley, visiting our stake a few years ago, stood up and requested
that the meeting not start on time, but that we all listen to the organ for
a few minutes, in reverence. It worked well, though our stake president was
very embarrassed!


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From mark_werner at byu.edu  Fri Feb  2 09:11:52 2007
From: mark_werner at byu.edu (Mark Werner)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:11:52 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Middle singles
In-Reply-To: <45C1F43C.6635.00B8.0@huskyenergy.ca>
References: <002801c74640$8e35cbd0$aaa16370$@edu> <45C1F43C.6635.00B8.0@huskyenergy.ca>
Message-ID: <002201c746dc$78299910$687ccb30$@edu>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Sorry, I was unclear in my original post. The idea is that the middle
singles would all be assigned to the same family ward, not create a new
singles ward. The presidency thinks the sister came from Huntington Beach.

Mark Werner

-----Original Message-----

  I am wondering where she lived in California, as the Stakes I lived in
there would have been too large.


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From mcmullen at us.net  Fri Feb  2 10:48:13 2007
From: mcmullen at us.net (McMullen Family)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:48:13 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <b8e8000702010810m388edf14x9d729de1c56fdca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8e8000702010810m388edf14x9d729de1c56fdca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2C67A9B8-B2DD-11DB-93E9-003065E19D88@us.net>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

One item -- just a suggestion.

Ross

On Feb 1, 2007, at 11:10 AM, Dave Hanley wrote:

>
>> From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
>> instructions and list URL.
>
>
> This submission made me laugh, mostly because I could clearly 
> visualize the
> man to whom you refer.  Some notes:
>
>
>   1. It is church policy that a new handbook supersedes old bulletins.
>   I believe this is found in the introduction of the Church Handbook of
>   Instructions
>   2. There is a list of all church communications available from the
>   distribution center.  When I was called as bishop, my clerk noted 
> which ones
>   we already had, and I selected which ones of the remaining I wanted 
> to have,
>   based on their titles.
>   3. When I was called into my first bishopric, the bishop invited me 
> to
>   wear a white shirt to church.  I only owned one, and had to go out 
> and
>   replace my more...uh... fashionable attire for classic white.  It 
> seemed
>   pharisaic to me to wear a white shirt, especially when the handbook 
> tells us
>   that it doesn't matter what kind of shirt or tie you wear.  But I 
> came to a
>   realization: There are certain cultural practices that if not 
> followed will
>   distract certain members of the church.  Passing the sacrament with 
> the left
>   hand, wearing a blue shirt, laugh when people call you "Bishop Dave" 
> over
>   the pulpit (I was a 29 year old bishop, now a much more mature 31), 
> etc.  If
>   the blue paper towels are distracting to this man, they're probably
>   distracting to others, so go buy some white ones.  Or, better yet, 
> go buy
>   some towelettes, so the men's hands actually get clean. :)

The towelettes are available through Distribution Services -- see the 
catalog.

>   4. The most important thing we do is save souls.  If that means 
> taking
>   the sacrament across the street to the inactive man's house who is 
> home
>   watching the Superbowl, I'm going to do that.  The handbook does not
>   preclude you from delivering the sacrament to those out in the 
> hallway
>   because they a) have a child, b) are uncomfortable in sacrament 
> meeting, or
>   c) were late.  Honestly, those who are habitually late to sacrament 
> likely
>   need its blessings and promises.
>   5. Last point... remember brethren that we are working with an
>   all-volunteer army.  People of all types need to be included and 
> heard.  If
>   this brother over focuses on things, help him to have empathy 
> without always
>   correcting him.  He likely means good and becomes myopic not because 
> he does
>   care about others, but he cares so very much.  His definitions of 
> success
>   and appropriateness come from his perceptions of the responsibility 
> of
>   priesthood leaders to set and abide by standards.  He just needs 
> understand
>   which standard is the most important.
>
>
> Thanks for letting me crash your clerk party.  I have the utmost 
> respect for
> our clerk, who has been in the position for a dozen years and has let 
> me
> know that he is happy to serve until he dies.  He is truly one of the 
> great
> ones.
>
> --Bishop Dave Hanley


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From bordenjr at knology.net  Fri Feb  2 15:12:27 2007
From: bordenjr at knology.net (Mitch Borden)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:12:27 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <45C274D0.5090301@nethere.com>
References: <28830128.1170357422581.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20070201171806.03587488@knology.net>
 <45C274D0.5090301@nethere.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070202161139.035a8b28@knology.net>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

At 06:16 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote:

> From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
> instructions and list URL.
>
>Clerks Copy of the  Handbook? What is that, My Bishop doesn't think 
>I need one as his Ward Clerk.
>
>Of course he has good reason I guess as I look at the gospel and 
>most of the handbook as "Black and White". But the typical comments 
>I hear when it is discussed in Bishopric Meeting are "What are the 
>Exceptions" and even one time "Lets do it and Call lit something 
>Else"  :-(  :-(
>
>Tom Walker

When the new CHI was distributed to the wards, each was to get four 
copies -- one for each of the Bishopric and one for the Ward Clerk.

Mitch Borden 



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From mark_werner at byu.edu  Fri Feb  2 15:56:14 2007
From: mark_werner at byu.edu (Mark Werner)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:56:14 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070202161139.035a8b28@knology.net>
References: <28830128.1170357422581.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070201171806.03587488@knology.net> <45C274D0.5090301@nethere.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070202161139.035a8b28@knology.net>
Message-ID: <004e01c74714$f57ce6f0$e076b4d0$@edu>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Actually, it doesn't specifically say who gets the fourth copy. In fact,
I've always been confused why they send four copies of Book 1 and five
copies of Book 2. We just consider the fourth copy to be the office copy and
keep it in a binder for handy reference.

Mark Werner

-----Original Message-----

When the new CHI was distributed to the wards, each was to get four 
copies -- one for each of the Bishopric and one for the Ward Clerk.

Mitch Borden


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From embunker817 at msn.com  Fri Feb  2 16:36:36 2007
From: embunker817 at msn.com (Eric Bunker)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 17:36:36 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Sacrament Queries
References: <98d3a3860702020613q41b326f0wb63f7b9573daed82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-DAV15D27FC2180BF88DBB5A6AF69B0@phx.gbl>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


When Elder Eyring visited our stake a few years ago to divide it, (and two stake divisions ago), He went and sat on the stand about 25 minutes ahead of the scheduled meeting time.  The building was full by then as were most of our other satellite buildings, (we broadcasted to four other buildings).  

At 20 minutes before the scheduled start, he turned to our president and said that since everyone is here, lets start, which we did 20 min. ahead of time.

Eric 

Clerk
Queen Creek Arizona Stake
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Arthur Smith<mailto:arthurpsmith at gmail.com> 
  To: ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com<mailto:ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com> 
  Cc: Arthur Smith<mailto:arthurpsmith at gmail.com> 
  Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:13 AM
  Subject: Re: LDSC: Sacrament Queries


  Clyde Morrell wrote:
  > I find that when I play a prelude at the organ the quieter I play the
  more reverent the congregation.

  Yes, I think the organ prelude (and postlude) has a strong effect. One
  particular trick I've noticed, that folks might want to try with their
  organists - periods of organ silence in between the prelude hymns. If you
  keep the organ going the whole time, people just treat it as background and
  may raise their voices. But if you break off the music for just a few
  seconds, suddenly the background is gone, people notice, and tend to quiet
  down. And stay quiet listening to the next hymn.

  Bishop Edgley, visiting our stake a few years ago, stood up and requested
  that the meeting not start on time, but that we all listen to the organ for
  a few minutes, in reverence. It worked well, though our stake president was
  very embarrassed!



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From rpyne at kinfolk.org  Fri Feb  2 17:35:22 2007
From: rpyne at kinfolk.org (Richard Pyne)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:35:22 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Middle singles
In-Reply-To: <002201c746dc$78299910$687ccb30$@edu>
References: <002801c74640$8e35cbd0$aaa16370$@edu>, <45C1F43C.6635.00B8.0@huskyenergy.ca>, <002201c746dc$78299910$687ccb30$@edu>
Message-ID: <45C3684A.28647.355E990@rpyne.kinfolk.org>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

While it may sound like a good idea, it does have a downside that we see 
here in Provo Bonneville Stake with our Spanish Branch in that it isolates 
people from their neighbors. Those who do not attend church and activities 
with their neighbors seldom become part of the neighborhood. This would 
serve to expand the feelings of isolation that many singles already feel.

--Richard

P.S. I do have a fair idea about being a single adult in the Church, 
having been divorced for 20 years now.

On 2 Feb 2007 at 8:11, Mark Werner wrote:

> Sorry, I was unclear in my original post. The idea is that the middle
> singles would all be assigned to the same family ward, not create a new
> singles ward. The presidency thinks the sister came from Huntington Beach.


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From lajackson at juno.com  Fri Feb  2 19:52:02 2007
From: lajackson at juno.com (Larry Jackson)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 20:52:02 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Re: Sacrament Queries
Message-ID: <20070202.200501.524.0.lajackson@juno.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Ross McMullen:

The towelettes are available through Distribution Services -- 
see the catalog.

_______________

A couple of years ago, the FM group put a plastic bottle with 
the "no water" hand cleaning stuff in it under each of the 
sacrament tables in our stake.  (I don't know what it is really 
called, sorry.)

The priests just press a drop of the stuff onto their hands, and 
as they rub it around it kills the germs and goes away.  Some 
kind of alcohol based substance.

We have not used towelettes since.

Larry Jackson



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From lajackson at juno.com  Fri Feb  2 20:04:58 2007
From: lajackson at juno.com (Larry Jackson)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:04:58 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Re: Sacrament Queries
Message-ID: <20070202.200501.524.1.lajackson@juno.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Mitch Borden:

When the new CHI was distributed to the wards, each was to get 
four copies -- one for each of the Bishopric and one for the Ward Clerk.

Mark Werner:

Actually, it doesn't specifically say who gets the fourth copy. . . .
We just consider the fourth copy to be the office copy and keep 
it in a binder for handy reference.

_______________

Most bishoprics I know have the executive secretary and the clerk 
share the fourth copy, usually keeping it in the clerk's office.

Larry Jackson



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From russellhltn at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 21:08:27 2007
From: russellhltn at gmail.com (Russell Hltn)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 22:08:27 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Middle singles
In-Reply-To: <45C3684A.28647.355E990@rpyne.kinfolk.org>
References: <002801c74640$8e35cbd0$aaa16370$@edu>
	 <45C1F43C.6635.00B8.0@huskyenergy.ca>
	 <002201c746dc$78299910$687ccb30$@edu>
	 <45C3684A.28647.355E990@rpyne.kinfolk.org>
Message-ID: <a0a0e1510702021908m47c78addn3452f12d3dec4545@mail.gmail.com>


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Unless one lives in a area where the membership is so thick that
neighborhood equates to a ward, I don't think that would make a bit of
difference.

While there a plenty of members in my area, I don't think there are
any in my neighborhood.


On 2/2/07, Richard Pyne <rpyne at kinfolk.org> wrote:
>
> >From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.
>
> While it may sound like a good idea, it does have a downside that we see
> here in Provo Bonneville Stake with our Spanish Branch in that it isolates
> people from their neighbors. Those who do not attend church and activities
> with their neighbors seldom become part of the neighborhood. This would
> serve to expand the feelings of isolation that many singles already feel.
>
> --Richard
>

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From embunker817 at msn.com  Fri Feb  2 21:15:08 2007
From: embunker817 at msn.com (Eric Bunker)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 22:15:08 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Middle singles
Message-ID: <BAY107-DAV9CEDD829CDD81AA390477F69A0@phx.gbl>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


Years ago, I was also a divorced man.  I attended a family ward with my children, though I didn't have any other option.  However, I was very active in the 31 - 50 year old adults, which is were I met my current wife 23  years ago.  It was a multi-stake organization, which gave the best exposure where I needed it.

In my case, I am very glad that I did not drag my kids through the single's scene  They were just regular kids in a regular ward.  The single's thing only lasted a year for me.  My spiritual needs were by served best in a family ward also where I also held callings.  I was very loved and cared for in a family ward and felt very much apart of it.  

The good thing in the short run with deaf wards, non-native language wards, and wards grouped by national origin it that people who are very different from a regular ward can participate and serve fully with people who are like them.  The bad thing is that these people never integrate fully in to a mainstream church, which limits very much their ability to serve.  I fear that a middle single's ward would do the same.

In the deaf ward and community, there are deaf parents who will not let their deaf children have cochlear implants which would allow their children to be in the mainstream.  It is considered a traitorous act to their community and cause.  We don't need this kind of things with middle singles.  

We have a single's ward sponsored by our stake that covers four stakes worth of young adults.  All of the stake presidents in our area are soon going to opt for just a singles branch in each of the stakes and better intra-stake activities.  They are going to do the same with our Spanish wards.

One of the ideas bantered about is creating a Spanish branch that is a dependant branch of one of the wards so that the youth will attend with the regular family ward for everything except for sacrament meeting, which branch will hold a separate sacrament meeting for the branch in the RS Room at the same time.

Eric 

Clerk
Queen Creek Arizona Stake
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Richard Pyne<mailto:rpyne at kinfolk.org> 
  To: ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com<mailto:ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com> 
  Cc: Richard Pyne<mailto:rpyne at kinfolk.org> 
  Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 4:35 PM
  Subject: RE: LDSC: Middle singles


  While it may sound like a good idea, it does have a downside that we see 
  here in Provo Bonneville Stake with our Spanish Branch in that it isolates 
  people from their neighbors. Those who do not attend church and activities 
  with their neighbors seldom become part of the neighborhood. This would 
  serve to expand the feelings of isolation that many singles already feel.

  --Richard

  P.S. I do have a fair idea about being a single adult in the Church, 
  having been divorced for 20 years now.

  On 2 Feb 2007 at 8:11, Mark Werner wrote:

  > Sorry, I was unclear in my original post. The idea is that the middle
  > singles would all be assigned to the same family ward, not create a new
  > singles ward. The presidency thinks the sister came from Huntington Beach.



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From lajackson at juno.com  Sat Feb  3 12:14:30 2007
From: lajackson at juno.com (Larry Jackson)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 13:14:30 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Overlay Spanish Branch (was Re: Middle singles)
Message-ID: <20070203.121503.2212.0.lajackson@juno.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Eric Bunker:

One of the ideas bantered about is creating a Spanish branch 
that is a dependant branch of one of the wards so that the youth 
will attend with the regular family ward for everything except for 
sacrament meeting, which branch will hold a separate sacrament 
meeting for the branch in the RS Room at the same time.

_______________

We do this here.  It is called an overlay branch and meets at the 
same time as one of the geographical wards.

Sacrament meeting is held in the RS room (Spanish) for the 
entire Spanish speaking branch.  Then, while the Spanish 
speaking adults attend Gospel Doctrine class, priesthood 
meeting, and Relief Society, the children attend Primary in the 
English speaking ward and the youth attend English speaking 
Sunday School, priesthood, and Young Women.

On activity night, the youth attend with the English speaking ward.

We had two units like this.  One still meets this way.  The other 
shifted to a complete stand alone schedule, including Sundays, 
because there was no longer space in the RS room for them to 
hold a separate sacrament meeting, and none of the English 
speaking wards were small enough to stay out of the cultural 
hall.  This particular branch now fills a good part of the chapel 
for sacrament meeting and is still growing.

Even though the Spanish speaking branches were called overlay 
branches, they are organized at the Church level as full-fledged 
independent branches, assigned unit numbers, have branch 
presidencies, separate finances, and all of the other leaders 
they need except for those organizations where they meet with 
an English speaking ward.

And although the branch is assigned to one particular ward for 
their English speaking meetings of children and youth, all of 
the members living in the city (two wards in this case) who wish 
to attend the Spanish speaking branch are able to do so and 
their membership records are transferred to the branch.

The branch also keeps an entire set of statistical records.  This 
places an extra burden on the English speaking ward hosting 
them, as leaders in Primary, YM, and YW have two separate 
rolls and need to report attendance to two different units.

It is called an overlay branch because the schedule is overlayed 
with another unit, and because (at least) part of the branch is 
overlayed over a ward.  Other than that, as far as Salt Lake is 
concerned, it is just another branch of the Church.

More than you probably wanted to know, but that is the latest 
on how the Church handles the language challenges in some 
areas.

Eric, if you would like some more information, feel free to e-mail 
me off list if you wish.  But, that is pretty much the gist of it.

Larry Jackson



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From wa7jos at xmission.com  Sat Feb  3 12:53:20 2007
From: wa7jos at xmission.com (Chuck Johnson)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 13:53:20 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Move in report
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-DAV9CEDD829CDD81AA390477F69A0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY107-DAV9CEDD829CDD81AA390477F69A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <45C4DA20.5070300@xmission.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

I got a call today from a clerk who discovered an anomaly with the 
"Members Moved In" report.
He printed the report, but noticed that several families whose 
memberships had arrived in the past month were missing from the report.  
When he changed the range of the report to go back several months, he 
found the "missing" members, but the move in report showed the "Move In 
Date" to be November, October, and one even September - even though all 
of the records had arrived since Christmas.
Has anyone else noticed this anomaly?  Does anyone have an explanation 
for the cause of this anomaly?

Chuck Johnson


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From tlwalker at nethere.com  Sat Feb  3 14:57:57 2007
From: tlwalker at nethere.com (Tom Walker)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 15:57:57 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Move in report
In-Reply-To: <45C4DA20.5070300@xmission.com>
References: <BAY107-DAV9CEDD829CDD81AA390477F69A0@phx.gbl> <45C4DA20.5070300@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <45C4F755.1050603@nethere.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

I have but haven't followed up on it. Quite regularly I find the Move in 
Date on that report other then the Day I received their Membership Records.

Tom Walker

Chuck Johnson wrote:

>
>> From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription 
>> instructions and list URL.
>
>
> I got a call today from a clerk who discovered an anomaly with the 
> "Members Moved In" report.
> He printed the report, but noticed that several families whose 
> memberships had arrived in the past month were missing from the 
> report.  When he changed the range of the report to go back several 
> months, he found the "missing" members, but the move in report showed 
> the "Move In Date" to be November, October, and one even September - 
> even though all of the records had arrived since Christmas.
> Has anyone else noticed this anomaly?  Does anyone have an explanation 
> for the cause of this anomaly?
>
> Chuck Johnson
>
>
>> From ldsclerks: Please do not send copyrighted material to ldsclerks.
>
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>
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>
>
>

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From jshawut at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  3 16:34:21 2007
From: jshawut at yahoo.com (John M. Shaw)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 17:34:21 -0500
Subject: LDSC: WardInfo HT VT Stats
Message-ID: <881573.95161.qm@web50504.mail.yahoo.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

All,

I remember that when I first started using WardInfo back several years ago that the HT/VT statistics would show up under a family.  So when viewing that family my bishop could easily know if they had been having regular visits from the HT or VT.  It hasn't been showing up since I've been called back into clerking duties recently.  Has something change with MLS/MIS for WardInfo, or am I missing a command line parameter when building it?  Help?

-John





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From webmaster at byondf1.com  Sat Feb  3 21:37:26 2007
From: webmaster at byondf1.com (Greg A. Anderson)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:37:26 -0500
Subject: LDSC: WardInfo HT VT Stats
In-Reply-To: <881573.95161.qm@web50504.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <881573.95161.qm@web50504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c7480d$cf6cfeb0$a901a8c0@frp.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

MLS does not export that information so it isn't available to WardInfo. MIS
use to export it. I have been requesting that info to be exported since MLS
came out and they just ignore my requests. I would also like to see the user
fields exported also. Maybe if we gang up on them. ;-)

Greg A. Anderson
ByondF1's Hi-Tech Superstore - http://byondf1.com
-
The LDS Banner Exchange - http://ldsbe.com
LDSircNet - An On-line LDS Community - http://ldsirc.net

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com
[mailto:owner-ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com] On Behalf Of John M. Shaw
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 2:34 PM
To: ldsclerks at MormonsToday.com
Cc: John M. Shaw
Subject: LDSC: WardInfo HT VT Stats


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription
instructions and list URL.

All,

I remember that when I first started using WardInfo back several years ago
that the HT/VT statistics would show up under a family.  So when viewing
that family my bishop could easily know if they had been having regular
visits from the HT or VT.  It hasn't been showing up since I've been called
back into clerking duties recently.  Has something change with MLS/MIS for
WardInfo, or am I missing a command line parameter when building it?  Help?

-John





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From newsletters at bristow.net  Sun Feb  4 05:29:03 2007
From: newsletters at bristow.net (wbristow3)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 06:29:03 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Problems with exported file membership.csv and those who are not members
Message-ID: <eq4g1v+5ohc@eGroups.com>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

When I do an export from MLS there are a couple anomolies I've not 
noticed before. Is this always true? Has it always been true?

--Men who are not members show a priesthood of unordained.
--All who are not members show they are single, whether they are or 
not.
--All who are not members show 'N/A' for spouse is a member
--All who are not members show 'N/A' for Sealed to Spouse but 'No' 
for Sealed to Prior Spouse

The membership.csv export file shows this. You can also create a 
custom report in MLS that shows the first two items.

Selection criteria:
--Member status is not Married
--   And Member status is not confirmed
--Birthdate has no value (nonmembers don't have birthdates)
--Household position is not other (to eliminate children in the 
household)

The format fields are:
--Preferred name
--Head of House & Spouse
--Spouse Name
--Spouse of Head of House
--Birth Date
--Marriage Date
--Priesthood

This creates problems with programs such as Ward Info and Ward Tools. 
Ward Info, I've noticed, in its report on single parent families, 
includes those where there is a spouse but the spouse is not a 
member. In Wardtools, if you bring up the information on someone who 
is not a member of the Church, it shows they are single even if their 
spouse shows as married.

Anyone have any insight on this? Is there a conceptual reason you 
would not show nonmembers being married even if they are? How do 
you "program" around these anomolies if you're trying to create 
statistical reports in a spreadsheet? How does MLS do it, for example 
in the Detailed statistics report for Households with Single Parent 
and Youth or Children? Or is it just a problem with the export 
function?

Walt Bristow
Lynchburg 2nd Ward
Ward Clerk





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From johnknutti at charter.net  Sun Feb  4 09:51:14 2007
From: johnknutti at charter.net (John Knutti)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:51:14 -0500
Subject: LDSC: MLS nonmember record issue
Message-ID: <45C600F2.5080507@charter.net>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Since there was a recent post about nonmember records in MLS, I thought 
I might mention something I recently discovered (perhaps this has been 
posted already, but I just joined).
 
For some families in which the husband is not a member, clerks in our 
stake have created nonmember MLS records. These families appear in 
directories printed from the ward MLS. However, these families are 
entirely absent from both directories and the membership export file 
produced by the stake MLS.

The MLS support team was notified and they replied that this is a known 
problem that they are working to correct in a future release of MLS.


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From clerk at m2safford.net  Sun Feb  4 14:33:50 2007
From: clerk at m2safford.net (Stake Clerk)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:33:50 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Tithing Settlement
In-Reply-To: <7378de6f0610211633h222313a0g19866ea06427bb7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA3aDhVG0taU+PNPB0g45XS8KAAAAQAAAAYgep8S303EmO+gBa5C2GggEAAAAA@m2safford.net>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Bishops are to send Tithing Declaration Reports and Tithing & Offerings
Batch Summary Reports to the stake by Jan 31.  What does the stake do with
those reports?  Just review and file?

Thanks.


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From jlspa51 at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  4 15:17:46 2007
From: jlspa51 at earthlink.net (Jack Smolevitz)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 16:17:46 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Other Account
Message-ID: <32456.1170623866955.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.

Perhaps I can receive some input from you brethren about the other account.

I've looked at the training on the web site, but this situation doesn't seem to be answered well, or maybe as I want to see it answered.

We have an "Other" account set up for Girls Camp.

Money has been contributed over the past few years, which hasn't been utilized to the Stake or for Girls Camp.

Since the money has been there so long and we wish to use it, does it seem appropriate to use this money for taking our youth to Palmyra for an overnight trip, to visit the Sacred Grove and the other sites there, to provide for each youth a spiritual experience and to be at and spend time where many important events occured.

We are looking at lodging and rental vehicles and food expenses for going there.

Since the money has been there for so long and doesn't seem to be used for anthing else, would this be a way of using it for a good purpose.

Ideas are welcome.

Thanx

bp s

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From jwtaber at juno.com  Sun Feb  4 15:45:33 2007
From: jwtaber at juno.com (John Taber)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 16:45:33 -0500
Subject: LDSC: Move in report
Message-ID: <200702050413.l154DloR005846@mormonstoday.propagation.net>


>From LDSClerks: Please see bottom of this message for subscription instructions and list URL.


The "move in" date is the date the record was sent out from the last unit listed on the record.  That is, if the record sat in address unknown (which is a file, not a unit), the move in date will be the date the last ward sent the record there.  Same if the record was in a unit that Salt Lake doesn't want everyone to know about - like the Arabian Peninsula Stake or whatever it's called now - and the prior unit listed on the record is the one they were in before that.  There's a couple in our stake whose "move in" date is before their ward was organized as a branch because that's where they were before.


-- Tom Walker <tlwalker at nethere.com> wrote:

I have but haven't followed up on it. Quite regularly I find the Move in 
Date on that report other then the Day I received their Membership Records.

Tom Walker

Chuck Johnson wrote:
>
> I got a call today from a clerk who discovered an anomaly with the 
> "Members Moved In" report.
> He printed the report, but noticed that several families whose 
> memberships had arrived in the past month were missing from the 
> report.  When he changed the range of the report to go back several 
> months, he found the "missing" members, but the move in report show